Culture, Mar 2nd, 2008
It should have been a vindication of sorts, an affirmation that the fledgling medium of blogging had grown up enough to warrant something as old-fashioned as a book deal. Not that Twenty Major’s royalties advance was a record-breaker: at four figures, it represents a low-stakes bet by the publishers Hodder Headline.
Twenty Major even comes with an existing readership: TwentyMajor.net is the best-known Irish blog. The eponymous blogger also has a gallery of fully-formed and foul-mouthed fictional characters: Jimmy the Bollix, Dirty Dave and Lucky Luciano.
So his debut novel, The Order of the Phoenix Park, should have been a coming-of-age milestone for Irish blogging. Instead, it’s a tepid, flimsily plotted satire filled with half-cocked gags. It’s not that they’re puerile and scatological, for that is Twenty Major’s métier, it’s just that they’re unfunny.
Readers of this damp-squib novel can be forgiven for wondering why anybody would consider such material worth publishing and whether the blogosphere – to give it its non-technical name – is anything more than a free soap box for ranting foul-mouthed angry white males, the sort of individuals who fulminate on radio phone-ins and fantasise about taking revenge for its perceived failings.
To the extent that blogging crosses the public consciousness at all in Ireland, it’s seen largely as an onanistic niche activity for self-regarding geeks, oddballs and social pariahs. We don’t really get the concept of blogging. We don’t take it seriously as a “fifth estate”, where the readers are just as much part of the discourse as the writers. When it comes to digital culture, we’re philistines.
This is not universally the case. In America, for instance, blogging has become a wild new media frontier, its development accelerated by the current race for the presidency. As Thomas Kunkel, the dean of journalism at the University of Maryland, observed, the internet today is like the American west in the 1880s. “It’s wild, it’s crazy and everybody’s got a gun.” If only that was true of Ireland. The blogging landscape here is mostly bucolic, with nothing much apart from a few pioneers and lots of tumbleweed.
Certainly, we have blogs. There are an estimated 2,000-3,000 based in Ireland, but the standard and scope of blogging here still lags far behind that of Britain and America. Things are improving – the shortlist for this year’s Irish Blog Awards, held in Dublin last night, was noticeably stronger than last year’s (declaration of interest: the list of more than 200 blogs included my own). Some, such as the illustration blog Scamp, bristle with ideas and fizz with energy. But there is still a dearth of heavyweight Irish bloggers.
We have few, if any, counterparts to the American blogging elite, whose online dispatches zing with flair, attitude and insight, not to mention – in some cases – with intellectual rigour. We simply don’t produce the vibrant and considered style of blogging that dominates the American scene, where there are compelling blogs on every topic imaginable – from architecture to zoology – each with energetic, articulate writing and comments sections brimming with vitality.
There are no Irish blogs on a par with, for example, DesignObserver.com, which comprises comments on design and culture, or Scienceblogs.com’s the Frontal Cortex, which deals with neuroscience and is more interesting than it might sound. The paucity of substance in the Irish blogosphere possibly stems from the cynical belief that blogging is a nerdy fad. The experience beyond our shores suggests it’s not necessarily so.
Blogging is part of mainstream culture. This is now how the world works: as soon as news breaks, often on blogs themselves, bloggers react instantly with analysis, insight, scorn, humour, brickbats and overheated demands for accountability.
Three years ago, when Media magazine put together its list of the top 100 media figures in America, it included seven bloggers. Their inclusion on a list that also counted such luminaries as Oprah Winfrey, Bill Gates and Rupert Murdoch sent a clear message: bloggers count.
By contrast, there are very few must-read Irish blogs and fewer still that are influential. Apart from Slugger O’Toole, a blog on Northern Irish politics and culture edited by the political analyst Mick Fealty, they are almost non-existent. This is perhaps due to our peculiarly suspicious anti-intellectualism. Back in our Catholicism-choked past, this manifested itself through censorship, but now it registers as a reluctance to embrace new forms of dialogue or an aversion to teasing out ideas
Elsewhere, not only are blogs where all the savviest leaders hang out, but the medium itself is increasingly regarded as important enough to merit serious analysis. American academics and commentators, especially, are keen to address how blogging melds with and is changing the existing media culture and social landscape.
Last month, the New York Review of Books published a lengthy piece about blogging, hanging it on the recent publication of 10 books on the subject, from publishers as illustrious as Doubleday, Wiley and the university presses of Princeton and Oxford.
But if an Irish academic or commentator were to write a book about the impact of blogs in Ireland, what could they say? Not a whole lot, bar the fact there are more Irish blogs than there used to be and, while some of them are diverting, none of them consistently demand attention.
The blame for the poverty of thought in the Irish blogosphere doesn’t necessarily lie with those who are already blogging, however. The fault is on the part of those who are not. Despite the efforts of Irish blogging evangelists such as Damien Mulley and Tom Raftery, there are no blogs from high-profile business leaders, none giving the inside view from political spin-doctors and few of value from the world of academia or the liberal arts.
Could it be that the Irish reluctance to engage in online discourse is down to outright laziness, or is it just an unwillingness to reveal too much?
In a society fixated on tangible returns, there seems to be a utilitarian lack of understanding of the benefits of blogging. Blogs and the debates they can instigate might help us towards an improved understanding of how Irish culture and society works – but where’s the money in that? Ironically, successful blogs often end up generating income, either through advertising or indirectly through increased awareness of the product or service under discussion.
Some of the most-read American blogs come from online publishers such as Gawker Media, Sugar Publishing and AntiClown Media. There aren’t any online publishing companies of note in Ireland yet, which is understandable. If the concept and value of blogging isn’t valued here, then a company that solely produces blogs isn’t likely to make any money.
Outside Ireland, blogging has also become an accepted and expected add-on to newspapers, radio and television. The mainstream media in Ireland, by contrast, mostly seems to be pretending that blogging doesn’t exist or, at least, will go away if it’s ignored long enough.
According to the media blog BlurredKeys.com, there are now almost 40 Irish-based journalists with blogs, but only three of these blog under the auspices of a traditional media outlet – the Irish Times. The Dubliner magazine also has a blog, but other than that, no traditional publications or news outlets are engaged in blogging.
This failure may be partly due to budgetary constraints – good blogging is time-consuming – and partly due to the cynical attitude of many journalists who regard blogging with apathy and even antipathy. Done well, blogging enhances the core journalism, instigates debate and helps to make a community out of an audience.
Take the BBC news editors’ blog, for example, where contributors write considered posts justifying broadcast decisions or giving behind-the-scenes insights to which viewers can respond. Recent posts include a thoughtful discussion of the BBC coverage of the suicide cluster in Bridgend, Wales, and a description of recording an interview with George W Bush in the White House. It’s fascinating stuff, but we’re unlikely to see an equivalent blog emanating from RTE any time soon.
The media’s reluctance to embrace blogging is emblematic of a wider cultural aversion to the medium here. Eventually, we’re likely to follow the American model, as generally happens with all things internet-related, from music downloading to social networking. The number of blogs will continue to grow and, at some point, will hit a critical mass, when everyone who is anyone will be blogging, untrammelled by self-conscious embarrassment, laziness or cynicism.
Until then, Twenty Major will continue to rule the roost in the Irish blogosphere.
51 Comments
March 3, 2008 at 2:58 pm
[...] Kathy Foley’s piece in the Sunday Times: We have few, if any, counterparts to the American blogging elite, whose online dispatches zing [...]
March 3, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Prescient piece given that Twenty Major won the Best Blogger award for the 3rd year in a row (yawn, hasn’t the novelty worn off yet? I say that as the one with the dubious honour of leaving the first ever comment on his blog). Lucky for you all the A-list bloggers were too hungover from the Blog Awards to but catch the ST yesterday. Otherwise you’d be the next John Waters.
I think the Irish blogosphere isreflective of Ireland. It’s a small place and cannot support the diversity that you have in places with larger populations. Having said that there are plenty of unique and precious gems if you look hard enough.
Oh, and the infrastructure deficit doesn’t help.
March 3, 2008 at 6:50 pm
The next John Waters? Quel horreur…even on a bad day, I have much better hair.
Agreed on the precious gems, but they can be seriously hard to find. There were a few on the Blog Awards list alright. American Hell, for sure, was one I liked.
March 4, 2008 at 10:02 am
There is much that could be said about the points made above but putting it very simply my take is as follows.
I couldn’t care less how much blogging/my blog (etc) “crosses the public consciousness”. That’s not being bitter or defensive, I genuinely mean it.
The “We” you speak of may or not “get blogging”, but again I ask: “So what?”
Even if blogging only inhabits a specific space and niche in this small country then what harm?
It exists, it grows, and (in its way) it thrives. The fact that the “mainstream media” may be reluctant to sanction or embrace it is of no great concern to many of “us”.
Here’s to the raw, the ragged, the spontaneous, and (yes) the alternative.
March 4, 2008 at 10:54 am
If Irish blogging isn’t making Time Magazine then what of Irish journalism?
Once again the thing you’re missing here is that blogging facilitates discourse which is NOT VIABLE in the mainstream media. If you think that every blog aims to have a mass audience and beat the New York Times then perhaps you need to broaden your interests beyond the field of current affairs.
I mean this is actually kind of laughable. You look at a specialist, niche blog and all you can think “this will never cut it in the mainstream media”.
What a weird way to look at writing and ideas! Do you really think the mainstream media is covering every subject worth a word? Or even half of them?
You fail to put two and two together and see that somebody being able to get 500 readers a day on a niche subject is one of the greatest strengths of the blog, not a weakness.
March 4, 2008 at 11:39 am
There are far fewer than 2000 Irish blogs; in fact, there’s less than 1000 active ones. And regarding ‘no blogs from high-profile business leaders’ — is Chris Horn high-profile enough for you? The blogs are there, if you look for them.
As to the lack of a Gawker Media analogue here, that’s what happens in Ireland’s small market, again and again. Blogorrah tried to launch a Gawker-style empire, but failed (more’s the pity). Give it time, though.
The IBAs tend to concentrate on a specific subset of the Irish blogging scene, but there are plenty of other people writing outside that.
However, I do agree Irish media has an irrational aversion to the concept of the blog; really, they have an aversion to the internet in general, through some misplaced snobbery. Their loss. Personally, I haven’t held an Irish newspaper in my hands in months…
March 4, 2008 at 12:56 pm
“By contrast, there are very few must-read Irish blogs and fewer still that are influential”
A little more investigation of the Irish Blog Awards winners would lead to Arseblog which measures daily visits in the tens of thousands, far more than nearly all the most high profile UK political blogs. It has spawned dozens of other Arsenal related blogs and is widely recognised as one of the stand-out sports blogs in the world. Last year it beat Gawker’s Deadspin site to win the best sports blog in the bloggies (http://2007.bloggies.com). A must-read and highly influential Irish blog.
March 4, 2008 at 1:02 pm
I agree with Justin. The media cabal in Ireland are secretly waiting for the Internet to go away. I buy and read only the one newspaper per week. If I read and cut out this article there are no prizes for guessing which one.
Information in Ireland is kept quiet and to yourself. Sharing is a sign of weakness. Any disclosure will mean you will lose face or get sued by anyone you mention, even in passing. Our libel laws are so tight that nobody says anything.
Watch Questions and Answers. The amount of pussyfooting around and dodging the issue is criminal. The use of the word “alleged” and the use of “A 31 year old non-national” or “A 25 year old woman”, “alleged assault” instead of names and crimes is an open sore affecting everyone living in Ireland.
What is wrong with saying 25 year old Joseph Stalin was arrested after attacking Joe Soap on the street”? Protecting the identity of the guilty and making sure that they are protected by laws that in practice do more to protect the perpetrator adds to the climate of fear in the country. The ability to say what actually happened without having to resort to Doublespeak would be a healthy development in our democracy. Such as it is.
Because debate is stifled in general in Ireland this is reflected in the lightweight and limited demographic range of Irish bloggers. Social stigma and the legacy of the Roman Church and the almighty kicking they gave the Irish people following Independence has led to this. People happy to take the money and turn a blind eye to what is going on. And then say nothing about it.
Is it any wonder we are a nation addicted to the bottle. We can’t say anything and the only outlet is to release this with drink or drugs. We need more real people blogging and we need more protection for these people. We need to express ourselves for our own mental health. An area that the Irish have neglected and stigmatised for no good reason.
March 4, 2008 at 2:36 pm
A lot of valid points. The Irish blogosphere does come across as quite incestuous and inward looking. However there are some fine bloggers out there covering a wide variety of topics. Unfortunately most have to work real jobs and only get to blog part time. A very important element of the blogosphere is that it opens a publin forum, a space for debate and discussion. Replies are instant, often biting and always varied in opinion (particularly the comments sections on the widely read Irish Times blogs).
March 4, 2008 at 7:59 pm
“What is wrong with saying 25 year old Joseph Stalin was arrested after attacking Joe Soap on the street”?”
Wow. Really, just wow. What this issue has to do with blogging I really don’t know, but it clearly is something that really bugs you BW. Anyway, what’s wrong, very wrong, with it is that it hands Joe Stalin, if he is indeed charged and tried, a ready-made defense. He will argue that he cannot get a fair trial due to the media rushing to judgment, and he will win.
Of course there’s also the notion that one is innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt before a jury of one’s peers, or, as you would phrase it, “an open sore affecting everyone living in Ireland”.
March 4, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Right, finally getting around to responding now not quite as many deadlines are hovering or indeed whooshing by.
First of all, just a general point: Yes, obviously, most blogs are personal and the people writing them couldn’t care less if no-one reads them or if they’re never “influential”.
The odd time you’ll get a personal blog that is so well-written or amusing or insightful that it ends up becoming very widely-read, but most of them aren’t. The people who write them enjoy doing so, as do the people who read them, but they’re never going to set the world on fire and that’s fine in everyone’s book.
My point was that we haven’t seen very many of what Kieran referred to over in the other thread as “break-out blogs” – those blogs that are so compelling and entertaining (whatever they’re about) that they gain a significant audience, incite considerable debate and, yes, become “influential”. As it is, not many Irish blogs get discussed around the watercooler.
I’d like there to be more blogs like that – whether from existing bloggers or people who don’t blog at the moment. I enjoy the “watercooler” blogs from the States and the UK and I’d like there to be more of them here.
Fustar, I take your point that it mightn’t matter and, in most cases, probably shouldn’t matter very much to those who already blog if blogging sits in its own niche, minds its own business and nobody takes any notice. I do think it matters more generally, however.
Blogs are a fantastic medium for ad hoc discussion, as Narocroc pointed out, and, as Ronan said, for dealing with or publicising information about specialist topics or even topics that are not especially specialist, but don’t get dealt with by the mainstream media.
And yes, of course, Ronan, it’s great for a specialist blog to get 500 readers a day, especially if those 500 readers couldn’t get the information or the analysis or the jokes about the topic anywhere else.
However, while it mightn’t matter to bloggers if blogging is not a more established part of Irish culture, but I think it matters a whole lot to the health of Irish society and culture.
Justin: I’d be interested to know how you can tell how many active blogs there are here? Not being sarky, genuinely interested! Also ta for the link to Chris Horn’s blog – nope, didn’t know about it. Hope he inspires more top business people to follow his lead.
March 4, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Oh, and I nearly forgot, two other quick links.
Damien linked to a report from CNET today called Why blogging isn’t big in Ireland, which might be of interest to anyone who didn’t see it.
And, also on the off-chance that anyone didn’t see it, Twenty responded in inimitable fashion.
March 5, 2008 at 1:20 am
Fergal,
It works in America. Why not here?
We might even try some of that Democracy stuff they are on about too.
March 5, 2008 at 1:26 am
Kathy,
I think it comes down to what you personally want from a blog and what you want that blog to “do”.
I’d say that most blogs I read are written by people I feel I “know” – in limited way – through their writing. This is not to say that I only read personal blogs, far from it – just that I value the relationship I have with the writer through my interaction with the blog (regardless of what she/he is writing about).
I like intimate, cosy (but not mawkish) and (perhaps most importantly) honest blogging spaces. By “honest” I don’t mean confessional necessarily. I’m referring more to honesty of expression. As soon as I read anything that seems glib, facile or overly performative I’m outta there like a shot.
The kind of “big impact” blogs you refer to (in America and elsewhere) rarely do anything for me. I tend to feel I’m getting little I wouldn’t be getting from the (dastardly!) mainstream media. In fact, I find many of them hampered by populism, ambition, and self-satisfaction.
Not what I want from a blog at all (though I accept and understand your interest in expansion).
Keep ‘em small and quiet say I, and well away from water-coolers.
March 5, 2008 at 9:38 am
hi Kathy,
I enjoyed the article. I have to say I’m in complete agreement about the Irish blogging scene – you put your finger on it about the lack of intellectual rigour and the absence of key figures from the business and political worlds. I have to say, I think you’ll agree, there are some fantastic personal blogs.
I think you are right that our anti-intellectualism is part of the explanation. It explains not only the paucity of intellectual debate on our blogs, but also in mainstream media an publishing in Ireland. The Irish commentariat is lamentably weak intellectually. I mean to say, what passes for analysis and opinion here is basically bar stool rambling for the most part.
Perhaps it is unfair to compare with larger countries – such as France, Germany, Britain, or America. Certainly I personally am always impressed by the best of American media and the cream of their journals or monthlys.
Also in France, where I lived for a while, I noticed that their debate of issues like globalisation, culture, and politics were usually founded on a very solid intellectual foundation. (This doesn’t mean they are always right, or always enjoyable, but the better arguments simply carried more weight and gave a more penetrating insight into the issues of our time).
The one area I can think of where Ireland stands out is in its literature. For a small nation, I think we create an amazing amount of high quality literature which is enjoyed world wide. It is true, we are a nation of story tellers. Perhaps that is why we are more given to telling our personal stories on blogs as well. A simplification for sure.
Nevertheless, a fascinating debate you have started. I hope the debate continues. All the best.
March 5, 2008 at 9:42 am
“However, while it mightn’t matter to bloggers if blogging is not a more established part of Irish culture, but I think it matters a whole lot to the health of Irish society and culture.”
I agree with this, but then if we started a list of things we wish were more prominent or successful in Ireland we’d be here all day.
March 5, 2008 at 10:49 am
[...] also read Kathy Foley with interest in the Sunday Times. She started off by slating Twenty’s book. I can’t comment on that, because [...]
March 5, 2008 at 11:53 am
‘Justin: I’d be interested to know how you can tell how many active blogs there are here?’
It’s from here: http://taint.org/technorati/full.html
That takes the list of the Irish blogs registered at http://planet.journals.ie , and looks them up in Technorati, discarding the ones that aren’t registered there, or are inactive. The end result is a list of all active Irish blogs, ranked roughly by readership according to Technorati’s metrics. (Unfortunately, it’s by global readership rather than Irish readership, but you can’t have everything
I’ve just noticed; there appear to be quite a few more than the last time I looked! 1369 nowadays.
March 5, 2008 at 12:56 pm
From the times when people drew messages on caves to pass the time or from the time that someone decided it would be funny to scribble some joke of the back of a toilet door.
I blog because i can.
If i don’t appeal to you or am not making waves and ripples with what i post. I don’t really mind.
If one person looks at my post and enjoys or smiles. That’s all well and good.
If ten people look at my post and say its a waste of time and that it’s pointless. That’s all well and good too.
I blog because i can.
Enjoy your day.
March 5, 2008 at 1:24 pm
I think Ireland is ahead of the game.
We have understood post-modernism without even thinking about it. We do what we like because that is what we like doing.
Suggesting that blogs should be ‘influential’ or ‘analytical’ is to cling to notions of authority that are redundant. Certain ‘influential’ columnists have been writing in the Irish Times for years, have they made one whit of difference to how Irish people live their lives or to the thinking outside of Dublin 4? No
The blogosphere is an anarchy. It is the ultimate republic.
Ben is right: we blog because we can.
March 5, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Ian,
I take your point about the disolving nature of authority. While I would accept that say, Irish Times ‘analysts’, don’t affect people’s lives directly, I think they may have an effect on our national discourse nonetheless. Those who read the Irish Times are more likely to be decision makers than any other readership. Changing their minds makes a difference.
Regarding influence. Despite the fragmentation – the post-modernisation if you like – of channels of communication, the traditional media still retain far more influence than you might imagine. And certainly the blogosphere, although beginning to make an impact, has a far smaller power to influence events. And as we have discussed, in Ireland in particular the blogosphere is weak.
When it comes to really investigating how power is wielded in Ireland or where corruption is flourishing, or where a light needs to be shone on an injustice, our traditional media (though flawed) still hold sway. The big revelations come from Prime Time or Spotlight or RTE news, or the Irish Times or a Sunday paper. Because these media have the resources and the incentive to pursue the issues in a way that bloggers do not.
Though I thoroughly welcome the way in which the net has opened up debate to all, I don’t share your love of anarchy. And I find the notion of a blogo-republic rather vague and to be frank, not very useful or convincing.
I lament rather than cherish the fact that Irish discourse lacks intellectual rigour. Of course, I don’t mean that a debate needs to be peppered with quotes of Plato or Descartes. Or that it should be conducted by experts or academics. I simply mean that it needs to appreciate some of the more probing enquiries into our world and preferably use some of the tools we have honed over time for this purpose. So I mean intellectualism as in ‘using the intellect’. And I refuse to equate a rant with an argument. (says he, in a rant!)
March 5, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Tomaltach,
The blogosphere is an anarchy in the proper sense of that word, “anarchia”, without rule, and a republic in a similarly proper sense, “res publica”, a public thing.
March 5, 2008 at 4:32 pm
[...] I thought blogging was a skill, much like journalism. Was John Waters a child prodigy? Did Kathy Foley always write such excellent articles? I’m thinking not. I’m thinking that they [...]
March 5, 2008 at 5:13 pm
[...] Shaughnessy response to Kathy Foley’s posts on the low standards of Irish blogging has me wondering. Wondering if I am indeed “inward [...]
March 5, 2008 at 7:40 pm
BW
“It works in America”
No, they don’t allow it in America either. It’s kind of a basic right in this democracy you speak of. Unless you can tell me in which American state newspapers are permitted to describe people as having committed the crime before they’ve been tried? I’ll check back occasionally.
March 5, 2008 at 10:17 pm
The one area where Irish blogs have been leading, with print media dragging behind, has been with the property market. for example, the analysis about oversupply has been on the blogs since July – sites like propertypin, a random walk, irish election, and my own as well. In fact, we´ve been giving the type of robust analysis for which you praise the American sites. And this is not only with regard to oversupply, the fact that rents have been falling for the past six months – and not rising as reported in the newspapers – but also to how government policy has directly led to the situation we now find ourselves in. It has not been picked up by the mainstream, that is true, but that doesn´t mean it is not there.
March 6, 2008 at 1:05 am
The Irish blogging scene is dominated not by quality bloggers and devoted readers, but low-quality bloggers who read each other’s blogs and pat each other on the back in self-serving praise, largely.
Blogging will not improve here by providing a larger platform to those currently on the Irish blogsphere, but when a significant volume of those in the mainstream media decide to adopt the medium.
It is highly revealing that Kathy Foley’s blog on this subject is actually the most insightful comment on the blogsphere here to date, give that unlike the vast majorities of her Irish blog comtemporaries, she is a professional writer who is in the employment of a national newspaper.
Interestingly, only a handful of the so-called journalists who blog who are listed on BlurredKeys are ‘real’ journalists. I forwarded the list by email to a national news reporter friend of mine who said he recognised only a handful of the names, such as Kevin Rafter (Sunday Tribune), Harry McGee (Irish Times), etc.
Put simply, there are only a handful of
March 6, 2008 at 7:09 am
Thanks for the patronising comment, Sean P. Brady. Only professional journalists should write blogs, then? Also, only professional journalists can “save” blogging from itself? now, there´s a low quality argument patting itself on the back.
You went to a list of bloggers and then contrasted that with a list of professional journalists, and hey presto! Blogging in Ireland is wanting?
What you are arguing for is not insight or analysis, but for blogging to be an adjunct to, basically, Irish journalism.
Let us get a few things straight about the professional standards of print journalism in Ireland these days. Going back to the property bubble and the economic implications of government-assisted speculation. In December 2007 the Irish media began to run with stories that, gasp, there was an oversupply in the property market. The figures they used from the CSO had been available since August 2007, and yet it took them three months to find them?
how about the fact that professional standards of journalism in Ireland usually runs to no more than printing rehash versions of press releases? Or even better, getting economic experts who work for estate agents to tell us that we should buy houses?
There are professionals in Ireland who blog, professionals in economics, in politics, in history – people for whom the analysis of raw data and the presentation of such in a readable form is their bread and butter. The professionalism of Irish journalism these days usually runs to nothing more than a cut and paste from a press release email.
I man, I find it quite interesting that Irish journalism is obsessed with twenty major and his book deal, rather than with blogs which are doing the type of economic, political, and historical analysis which the broadsheets have abandoned, more or less, in favour of de facto commercial advertising “reports”.
March 6, 2008 at 8:52 am
Conor – well said. When I wrote of the lack of rigour on the Irish blog scene, one main exception which came to mind was your own site. But in general, I don’t think many blogs match that standard. Unless I just haven’t found them yet.
March 6, 2008 at 8:54 am
Kathy, I linked to your article fully intending to reply, but it’s been a hectic week and I’ve been negligent at commenting in various places, including my own blog.
Despite the fact that I said nothing critical about you or the article, Sean P. Brady decided to comment on my blog casting aspersions on my validity as a journalist.
http://www.sineadgleeson.com/blog/2008/03/04/crime-always-pays-so-do-it-with-comments/
If I had castigated you in some way (I only offered a link to the piece, not an opinion), perhaps I would see some motivation for his remarks.
I didn’t know that to be a “real” journalist, you have to have a full-time job.
March 6, 2008 at 9:56 am
Nobody wants to get personal here. I mean, Kathy´s criticisms are completely valid. Irish blogging has a LONG LONG way to go.
Two points I want to make: firstly, there are some blogs out there doing decent stuff, but it takes a bit of digging.
Secondly, the idea that Irish journalism is some kind of bench mark for professional standards in analysis and input is laughable. (something that Kathy does not say. Kathy, quite rightly, criticises Irish blogging in relation to international standards of blogging. Completely fair comment.)
Tell me tell you something about Irish journalism: woodward and Bernstein it áint. In fact, were Irish journalism to be subjected to a robust criticism in relation to international standards of investigation and independence, it would show itself up to be what it is: mediocre and interest-led.
I know this is slightly off your original point, Kathy, but please bear with me.
Three short points from Michael Hannigan of finfacts.ie
Since 1997, has Bertie Ahern ever been interviewed by Prime Time?
where else (except within Irish journalism) would there be such coverage in the media on the Mahon Tribunal but where the issue of the system that makes land scarce in a country that is 4% urbanised and which spawned corruption is ignored?
It’s striking how little of substance John Gormley has to say on climate change. It’s also striking how he gets away with typical ministerial waffle without being held to account by the media or Opposition. When Richard Tol of the ESRI questioned how the annual 3% emissions target would be achieved before Xmas, Gormley gave no response; the Dail was shuttered for six weeks and for example simple questions on the light bulb ban were left to an unnamed spokesman to waffle about rather than the Ministers feeling obligated to provide specific answers.
Kathy´s criticisms of Irish blogging came from placing Irish blogging within its international context, and quite rightly so.
The idea that Irish blogging should be dragged down to the low standards of Irish porfessional journalism is simply laughable.
March 6, 2008 at 11:25 am
Sorry, been busy and left the blog unattended yesterday. Hope no-one has reported me to blog social services. First off, thanks again for all the comments. As Tomaltach said, it’s really proving to be an interesting debate.
Grandad: As I said over on HeadRambles, I’m looking at this from the view of readers or potential readers of blogs. Of course, bloggers can write how and what they want, particularly as the vast majority are not doing it for anyone else’s benefit. The readers, however, are obviously going to be looking for blogs that are, if nothing else, a bit lively and relatively clearly-written (and clearly, going by the comments, they find quite a number that are in Ireland).
And yes, probably best for you to agree with Granny
Brianf: Really interesting perspective. I like the idea that Ireland is some way off reaching critical mass on the blogging front, while at the same time blogging is seen to have jumped the shark by a lot of people Stateside. Maybe I’ll be doing the “God, we’re all so sick of blogs” piece in a couple of years! Thanks for the add btw.
Fustar: I want big impact! Nah, I see your point and I too enjoy many of the more intimate and honest blogs. There’s still no moving me from my entrenched position that our blogging scene – or Irish discourse generally – would benefit from some “watercooler” heavyweights
Tomaltach: I’m laughing at the bar stool rambling comment. Guilty, I’m sure, at times anyway. Agreed on the best of American and French media. No shame in either quarter in taking an intellectual approach and not in a painful, patronising way (well, not always), but they’re not embarrassed to be seen to think about things.
[Slight tangent: Last time I was in France, I picked up one of the weekly news mags and the full-page editorial was asking, in a very accessible, conversational way, who would be the key philosopher of the 21st century. Made me smile.]
Yes, as I see your second post, there is no shame in intellectualism when you take it to mean “using the intellect”. There is a tendency in Ireland for people to be quick to denounce “intellectuals” as people with their heads up their backsides. That’s not always the case.
Ronan: “if we started a list of things we wish were more prominent or successful in Ireland we’d be here all day” – True, but a girl can dream, right? Bit of wishin’ and hopin’ never goes astray.
Justin: Thanks for the explanation! I guess we’ll just have to make do with those global readership figures.
Ben: I like your attitude! Enjoy your day too.
Ian: Tomaltach responded more articulately than I ever could to your point, but I would agree with you that blogging is both anarchical and a republic in the sense you meant. Just to reiterate, I’m not saying all blogs should be influential or analytical. I would just like to see the emergence of some blogs that were more so.
Manuel: I’m not sure if I’d call it influence, but it certainly proves the point that experts can emerge through the world of blogs and I think that’s a good thing. The traditional media leans heavily on known experts in different areas so it’s always good to see fresh voices, perspectives and insights. I like your blog btw – hadn’t read it before.
Bock: If a tree falls in the forest… Nah, presume Haydn meant that he doesn’t read many now because of past experience. Still, always worth regularly revisiting to see how things have changed.
Fergal: Don’t have anything in particular to add here. Think you’re doing a grand job there without my two cents
Conor: I take your point, but this is where the lack of awareness of the general public about blogging is an issue. Such blogs could be “watercooler” blogs, but there is still both scepticism and ignorance about blogging on a wider scale here. There may be blogs that could fulfil the criteria I set out, but they haven’t “broken through”.
Also, I’m not sure if I’m aware of the specific blogs on economics, politics and history you refer to – a few links please if you get a chance? Genuinely interested. [Aside: “Of course it’s art. It’s got a fucking oboe in it” just made me spray coffee everywhere. Thanks.]
And as for your last comment…yes, we are getting a bit off-topic at this stage. I share your frustrations in some ways – truly excellent journalism is a bit thin on the ground – but as I’ve said before, there are all sorts of limitations at work in newsrooms and merely to decry journalists as being lazy, lacking in drive, or hidebound by convention is too facile a criticism.
Is that really true about Ahern and Prime Time? Staggering, if so.
Sean: I appreciate you coming to my defence, but I can’t agree with you on the “real” journalists comment. If you work as a journalist, you’re a journalist, whether or not you are as high profile as others.
Also responded to your comment on Sinead’s blog. I also work on a freelance basis and (obviously) wouldn’t agree that status as a staffer or a freelancer is any indication of the quality of your work. I’ve always had great respect for Sinead’s writing. Don’t know her personally, I should add.
Phew. Must really try to respond as things are going along. If anyone reads all this, they should get a prize
March 6, 2008 at 12:47 pm
The phenomenon of The Property Pin is worth a column in itself.
It was formed when discussion of falling property prices was banned on the Ask About Money forum and has since exposed the Irish property market for the Popnzi scheme that it is.
Not sure if it qualifies as a blog though.
March 6, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Ponzi even.
March 6, 2008 at 1:05 pm
There are two places I always go for a great perspective on economics and economic thinking in this country. The first is finfacts, (not really a blog, I know, but certainly not mainstream media). The other is michael taft and his Notes from the front. The links are below.
http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/
http://www.finfacts.ie/
Unfortunately, a random walk is now gone. There´s a forum still up, though.
http://www.arandomwalk.com/
For politics and history there´s our own blog, dublin opinion (of course
) and cedarlounge and irishelection.
http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/
http://www.irishelection.com/
With regard to professional journalists and time pressures. Most of us have full-time jobs and only get to research, investigate, and analyse in our spare time. Even with that, though, we’re still able to come up with analysis such as below with regard to property and government policy.
http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/22/ghosts-towns-of-leitrim-and-longford/
http://dublinopinion.com/2007/08/18/irish-housing-watching-a-fat-man-dance/
http://dublinopinion.com/2007/12/22/dublin-rents-and-the-myth-of-demand-three-weeks-on/
March 6, 2008 at 1:07 pm
I tried to post some links to bogs and articles, but i think it´s ended up in the phishing box.
In the week where Bertie got hammered at the Mahon tribunal, RTE did a 15 minute interview with him, 1pm prime time radio. The topic? The new Irish soccer manager.
That is staggering.
March 6, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Sorry about this. I should have put it all in one comment. However, in response to this:
“I share your frustrations in some ways – truly excellent journalism is a bit thin on the ground – but as I’ve said before, there are all sorts of limitations at work in newsrooms and merely to decry journalists as being lazy, lacking in drive, or hidebound by convention is too facile a criticism.”
If I may say, I think that´s too facile a defence. The Irish Times, for example, bought a property website for €25 million. There´s enough reasons in that to explain the kid glove approach taken by that paper with relation to property. And that´s before we get into a breakdown of the millions gained by all newspapers in property advertising revenue.
Of course, all of this has been covered in great detail on blogs – and all backed up with evidence, a crucial point – , but I doubt if Sean P. Brady´s journalist mate has covered any of it.
March 6, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Yup, WordPress was suspicious of all those links, but obviously it’s through now. Thanks for taking the time to post those. Will go through when I get a chance and come back to you. Likewise on the Property Pin. Cheers, K
March 6, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Sorry replied before your second post. There’s no denying many newspaper publishers are making money, but that is not necessarily reflected in editorial budgets.
March 6, 2008 at 2:35 pm
I’m afraid it is reflected in editorials. An analysis of same shows that there is an incredible amount of spin going on at the moment with regard to property, rental, bubbles, resurgences, etc. Again, we´ve done some work on this, but I don’t want to take this particular post off its point. We’re going to be covering this topic again soon – in that we’re just finishing up a comprehensive study of bias in Irish media, and as soon as it’s up I’ll let you know.
The one thing that Irish media is absolutely terrible at is critical self-analysis. Now, up until blogs came about, the only time the Irish media got analysed with any academic rigour was, well, in academic publications that had a very, very limited and specialised readership. What we’re beginning to see now is people with an academic background writing articles that summarise research and who are presenting those summaries in non-academic speak for an internet audience. That type of presentation is not going to go away.
I mean, take someone like John Waters, who gets paid a six figure sum by the Irish Times for his column. what gets me is that bloggers do not have to justify their existence to someone like John Waters – rather, John Waters has to justify the six figure sum he gets for his opinions. No?
March 6, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Wow, I hadn’t realised the campus identity politics which depoliticised American universities in the 90’s and allowed the neoconservatives to take over mainstream public debate by de-emphasising social inequality in favour of third wave feminism had spread to Ireland. You madam are a misanthrope, and you’re aversion to “foul-mouthed angry white males” doubtless belies your inability to snare one.
I’m no fan of twenty, but the vitriol you poor out here is misplaced and moronic. Middle aged, middle class white males invested the web (Tim Berner’s Lee), RSS (Dave Winer), Blogging (every blog before about 2002) and podcasting (Adam Curry), so it’s no surprise they represent a majority. Fortunately the cost of setting up a blog is nill, and the audience is self selecting, so only a poorly educated bigot such as yourself would decry the readership or authorship of the Irish blogosphere.
March 6, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Sorry Frank, but are you talking about Kathy´s article? I can only take that you are being sarcastic. If you are, I suggest that you need some practise, ´cos you’re not very good at it.
March 6, 2008 at 5:01 pm
[...] That’s right, it’s World Book Day, and to celebrate the occasion Controversial Blogging Sensation turned Controversial Literary Sensation Twenty Mango will be reading from his debut novel The Order Of The Phoenix Park (pictured, flying off shelves) tonight outside Eason’s on O’Connell Street, after which he will lead a procession of devoted Twentyites to the offices of The Irish Times, where they’ll proceed to wreck the bleedin’ gaff in response to the incredibly patronising ‘review’ the Times’ Weekend Review gave him last weekend. Laugh? We nearly made it to the end of the article. In a doomed attempt to quell the controversy, award-winning Times blogmeister Shane ‘Hegimony’ Hegarty has already agreed to tackle Twenty in a pitch n’ putt face-off, but after the whole John Waters thing and now this, the battle lines have been drawn. Next stop: The Sunday Times. The Chancer Inquires: Who’s side are YOU on? more: Blog Roll (The Sunday Times) [...]
March 6, 2008 at 7:23 pm
On a sideways topic, how come some of the “leaders” in print media always seem to be behind most blogs in releasing big scoops and stories?
I do believe there is a certain envy there that the print media has for the quicker and often more popular web based news delivery.
March 6, 2008 at 7:24 pm
OK Conor will wait to see the results of your study. Should make for interesting reading. Don’t forget that there isn’t an unbiased person on Earth
As for Frank, well, you read way too much into a few words there. I entirely reject the accusation of being a misanthrope. On the contrary, I like humankind very much indeed. Especially men (and their funny little ways).
And have to say, I’d be fully confident in my ability to snare a foul-mouthed angry man, but the question is, would I want to? Eh, and the answer is…No.
March 7, 2008 at 2:38 pm
I would tend to think that Twenty’s book is a right old curate’s egg. It gets going nicely towards the end with the pacing working much better. I was happy with it at €8.50 though I wonder how many others at a similar stage in their writing development would get published. No harm though.
I do wonder that some folks aren’t too readily roused to the battlements anytime they perceive an attack on blogging when someone was merely point out some deficiencies. It is not the simplistic case of blogging good versus blogging bad. Some writing is analytical, some is pure gut opinion, some is personal narrative, some is almost magazine like with folks just linking to items they found and liked on the net, some blogs are a mixture of all those. The blogopshere in Ireland is still too incestous and it may well remain that way for a considerable period or it could yet break out this year when the Beboers realise the limitations and decide they have much, much more to say for themselves.
One thing we can hope for is that we can move past the Dublin (particularly D4) focused media call up for voices. RTe is the worst but by no means the only offender for having the same heads on every topic. If Richard Boyd Barrett was in Roscommon we’d never hear from him (how much Ming never seems to get called on to speak for the under 40 alternative viewpoint), Dick Roche was working across the road in UCD for years and so available anytime RTe needed someone from FF to speak their brains, and the Late Late was practically providing Ulick O’Connor with free room and board for much of the 80s. Blogs can and should aid in eliminating some of the problems associated with being heard from a distance in what is after all a very small country.
March 7, 2008 at 5:34 pm
[...] evidence they produce in order to back up that argument. Which is probably why blogs are so easily dismissed, in Ireland at least. They don’t have a big enough brand to convince people that their product is [...]
March 7, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Hi Kathy, the above pingback links to the article on media that I mentioned earlier. It pretty much sums up what we think of the Irish media.
All the news that´s fit to sell.
March 8, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Kathy, it seemed inappropriate to say thanks with the debate roaring on, but thanks for the kind words.
I could join in, especially having lived in the US for the last 8 years but I don’t know where I’d stop. I do think though, that even if we in Ireland had taken to blogging in the same numbers and at the same time as the US, that we’d still have different kinds of blogs – because we’re different people.
March 27, 2008 at 5:06 pm
[...] ask this because Kathy Foley blasted Irish blogger Twenty Major’s new book and proceeded to question whether the Irish blogosphere [...]
March 31, 2008 at 11:12 pm
[...] from one race as accountable for another? Or family or colour or country? But then Conor thinks blogging has a long way to go. I certainly don’t want this long way to go journey to end with me being obliged to blog in a [...]